Life Electric: EV Negativity — Bulb Community

Life Electric: EV Negativity

I just wanted to address this point in the latest blog post:
Owning an electric vehicle can, in some cases, double your energy bills and that’s going to have a huge impact on whether you invest in an electric car or not. We want to see a world where charging your car at home is easy and affordable.


These few sentences are really misrepresentative, and puts an extremely negative tone around the current state of EVs. Yes it's true if you do a LOT of driving you could double your home energy bill, however even if you are on a tariff with electric right at the cost cap it's a non-issue. It's so much cheaper to run an EV even if you do nothing to minimize your energy bills.

If we pay 19.09p / kWh and get 3.5 miles per kWh. According to Ofgem last year the average annual energy bill was £1,138, so if we want to double that we have to do almost 21,000 miles a year (2.6x the average). Now go do that same mileage in a car that gets 45 MPG at 1.195 a litre, and you are paying just over £2518 a year. That's a saving of £1380 a year while being on literally the worst tariff possible.

It already is affordable to charge your car at home, and it's plain disingenuous to suggest otherwise.

Comments

  • edited February 19
    "We’ve never used so much energy in our homes."

    We have, it's just industry has declined/shifted :#

    I agree with you, I can't see many people worrying about spending more on electricity if it means spending even less on petrol..
  • I just wanted to address this point in the latest blog post:

    Owning an electric vehicle can, in some cases, double your energy bills and that’s going to have a huge impact on whether you invest in an electric car or not. We want to see a world where charging your car at home is easy and affordable.


    These few sentences are really misrepresentative, and puts an extremely negative tone around the current state of EVs. Yes it's true if you do a LOT of driving you could double your home energy bill, however even if you are on a tariff with electric right at the cost cap it's a non-issue. It's so much cheaper to run an EV even if you do nothing to minimize your energy bills.

    If we pay 19.09p / kWh and get 3.5 miles per kWh. According to Ofgem last year the average annual energy bill was £1,138, so if we want to double that we have to do almost 21,000 miles a year (2.6x the average). Now go do that same mileage in a car that gets 45 MPG at 1.195 a litre, and you are paying just over £2518 a year. That's a saving of £1380 a year while being on literally the worst tariff possible.

    It already is affordable to charge your car at home, and it's plain disingenuous to suggest otherwise.
    Very true, the blog post seems to forget that petrol/diesel is a huge cost for energy due in part to poor efficiency that must be taken into account which by comparison is only a mild cost of extra electric used - thus an overall reduction.

    I checked the costings a few months back and worked out that for travelling within range of my full electric 30Kwh leaf the fuel cost on economy 7 overnight was a fifth of the equivalent cost of diesel.

    Charging up during the day rate at slow speed 2.4Kw with limited solar was third, using full speed 7kW or no solar was half.

    Going further afield and using one full rapid stop at ecotricity was about half the cost. Going much further afield using multiple rapids the cost was approaching that of petrol, the inconvenience of multiple 30 minute stops begins to become a factor, so the hybrid/range extender for now becomes more convenient but still more costly for the occasional very lengthy journeys.

    Over the 3 peak summer months I can charge up equating to half my travelling costs for effectively free by consuming the solar panel output directly (lucky to be working from home two days a week and on weekends one of the cars is normally left at home to soak up the solar whilst out in the other).
  • Thanks for starting this thread. I read the blog post and thought exactly the same.

    I am saving money on fuel bills by having an electric car. Because petrol is energy.
  • edited February 20
    I do wonder how long it's going to be before we're charged additional fuel duty on electricity used to charge our EVs. Right now we're driving around with "red electric", the equivalent of red diesel. At some point with the decline of petrol and diesel taxation, we're going to be required to pay the additional duty on the electric we use. This will be very easy to do on public charge points, and moderately easy to do with home charging by mandating a meter on each wallbox (my PodPoint already does this) and self-assessment declaration when using a granny charger.

    The time of very cheap EV usage will come to an end, and I fear it's going to happen much sooner than we think. Factoring in the fuel savings when budging up an EV purchase is being a little optimistic I think these days. Ten years ago for sure, but the gravy train will end soon and almost certainly within the life of any EV purchased today depending on how long you tend to keep a car of course. I'd say there's one more round of 3-year PCP available before taxes get ramped up. If you keep a car longer than that (I've tended to swap mine at the 6 year mark) then you need to consider the tax increases in your budget and how that will affect the TCO in terms of affording a more expensive vehicle up front.

    I don't know what I'd replace my Leaf with right now. All the latest EVs are too expensive for me, fuel savings or not. I'll be watching the Kona/Nero residuals with interest. Perhaps I'll be able to pick one up at 2 years old. Either that or a 2/3 year old 40kWh Leaf2 in 2020.
  • More likely that the smart motorways and major A roads will charge per mile.
  • edited February 20
    Hooloovoo said:

    I do wonder how long it's going to be before we're charged additional fuel duty on electricity used to charge our EVs. Right now we're driving around with "red electric", the equivalent of red diesel. At some point with the decline of petrol and diesel taxation, we're going to be required to pay the additional duty on the electric we use. This will be very easy to do on public charge points, and moderately easy to do with home charging by mandating a meter on each wallbox (my PodPoint already does this) and self-assessment declaration when using a granny charger.

    The time of very cheap EV usage will come to an end, and I fear it's going to happen much sooner than we think. Factoring in the fuel savings when budging up an EV purchase is being a little optimistic I think these days. Ten years ago for sure, but the gravy train will end soon and almost certainly within the life of any EV purchased today depending on how long you tend to keep a car of course. I'd say there's one more round of 3-year PCP available before taxes get ramped up. If you keep a car longer than that (I've tended to swap mine at the 6 year mark) then you need to consider the tax increases in your budget and how that will affect the TCO in terms of affording a more expensive vehicle up front.

    I don't know what I'd replace my Leaf with right now. All the latest EVs are too expensive for me, fuel savings or not. I'll be watching the Kona/Nero residuals with interest. Perhaps I'll be able to pick one up at 2 years old. Either that or a 2/3 year old 40kWh Leaf2 in 2020.

    I think it's much more likely we will see a mileage tax, rather than trying to tax the electric. You can get electric from everywhere, it's not really feasible to tax it separately from electric everywhere you can get it. I also think such a tax would apply to all cars.

    That's if it's done at all, there's a lot of savings elsewhere from transitioning to electric.
  • This thread has been an interesting read however I have distanced myself from the E cars as I will never own one.
    My wife and I used to have a combined yearly mileage in excess of 100k miles, nowadays lucky if it is 20 miles per week, so we have gone from having nice big cars to getting the cheapest we can to run.
    At best we have maybe 10-15 years driving left (age) so to buy an E car would not be cost effective as it would take me years to make any cost saving. the cost of the car plus getting electrics installed etc. I can well afford to buy one but cant see the point.

    I also as others have said there will come a time E cars will not be cheaper to run than the equivalent wet fuel. Look what they done with diesel once people moved over the price went up. Same with the feedback tariffs, that I believe has now tumbled in price.

    Just my take on it.
  • I doubt no matter what happens that they will be more expensive to run. Diesel has a lot of negative externalities and should be banned due to the impact on people's health.

    With petrol cars being phased out,
    If you bought a new car mid 2020s it will probably be cheaper upfront to go electric as well.
  • I have no doubt that electric cars are vastly cheaper to run than any comparable price fossil fuel car, and it will remain that way.

    Any taxes that may somehow be imposed on electric cars will almost certainly apply to fossil cars as well.

    I run a diesel van but I also agree that production should be banned - when I can afford to get a new one, it'll definitely be a hybrid, if not fully electric. Diesel makes absolutely no sense when hybrids exist (with direct electric drive and a petrol generator).
    I wouldn't necessarily go as far as banning diesel use completely as it'll no doubt end up being phased out naturally. As fewer people require it, places will simply stop selling it.

    @scudo, environmentally it makes sense for people who don't drive much to be those with the older fossil cars and I'm sure this will just be the way it goes. Far too often people justify buying something new that they hardly use just because it's more energy efficient when they actually do use it.
  • How far should we go and what will be next?

    Ban on gas cookers and boilers by 2050 to hit green targets: Ministers pledge low-carbon alternatives as part of £2.5bn plan to modernise the use of fuel in homes
    •Measures part of Government's Clean Growth Strategy
    •The £2.5billion scheme aims to modernise the use of fuel
    •Comes after promise in July to ban sales of petrol and diesel cars by 2040
  • @scudo, I see no issue with moving away from gas either. 2050 is a very long way away, and that will be a ban on sale not a ban on use.

    There have been discussions about converting the gas up in Leeds to 100% hydrogen, which is all well and good apart from the fact that everyone would need new appliances and the hydrogen would be produced by electricity... Might as well just go all electric.

    I have no plans to install any gas appliances again. This gas boiler will be my last and the new hob will be electric when I finally replace my crappy falling apart kitchen.

    If we look at how quickly the planet has been damaged by our actions, it's obvious that we need to take some seemingly drastic actions to try and fix it.

  • ................
    I see no issue with moving away from gas either. 2050 is a very long way away

    .........And ban new houses being connected to mains gas before 2025
  • scudo said:

    And ban new houses being connected to mains gas before 2025

    ... and in the same regulation mandate three phase electrical supplies instead.
  • scudo said:


    ................

    I see no issue with moving away from gas either. 2050 is a very long way away

    .........And ban new houses being connected to mains gas before 2025
    I don't really see what the issue is? Electric cookers and induction hobs are just as good as gas ones, and heat pumps are great. We can do all this today really.
  • I don't really see what the issue is

    For many it will be cost and one way or the other it will be forced on all. Some people can hardly afford their heating at the moment let alone upgrade it.
    Its all too easy to simplify saving the planet but look at the school children who had protests about saving the planet last week as they used their `has to be the latest`mobile phones and get lifts to school before they will walk, stuff their faces and become obese and many will wear `one wear disposable` fashion clothes.
  • Old houses are still going to be connected to gas, and if new houses not being connected to gas is really being considered as a problem as far as energy costs go then there's a far larger problem with how badly the houses are being constructed. In a well built well insulated house, you hardly need heating at all in our mild climate.
  • scudo said:

    I don't really see what the issue is

    For many it will be cost and one way or the other it will be forced on all. Some people can hardly afford their heating at the moment let alone upgrade it.
    No one is being forced to upgrade it, it's for new houses. Though I would like to see the government providing some incentives to upgrade from boilers to heat pumps.
  • No one is being forced to upgrade it

    Ok maybe not force lets call it manipulated. :)
  • Thank you so much for sharing your thoughts and feedback on the blog, as well as your thoughts on the trends of EV costs in the future! We understand that the phrasing could be misrepresentative, so we have reflected on the phrasing and nuance of the post in our team and will consider it in future blog posts.

    Here are a few thoughts from the team to add to this thread: the usage of electricity of EV’s is not trivial. We know that for some of our member’s households, especially households that are more energy efficient, adding an EV to the household can mean that electricity consumption doubles. (In which it is good to acknowledge that the blog post stated that energy bills could double, which should have stated that electricity consumption could double.) Because we know that this is the case for some households, as well as knowing that an EV will have a significant impact on every member’s energy bills (whether the bill doubles or not), we are investing in which services we can provide to make charging the car as simple, renewable and affordable as we can.

    Nonetheless, we acknowledge that the statement of the “doubled energy bill” does not represent an average household. EV’s are absolutely much less expensive per mile than the mainstream gasoline-powered vehicles. Thank you for making us aware of the tone of writing and sharing your thoughts. We will continue following this thread and use your feedback where possible.
  • edited February 26

    Here are a few thoughts from the team to add to this thread: the usage of electricity of EV’s is not trivial. We know that for some of our member’s households, especially households that are more energy efficient, adding an EV to the household can mean that electricity consumption doubles. (In which it is good to acknowledge that the blog post stated that energy bills could double, which should have stated that electricity consumption could double.) Because we know that this is the case for some households, as well as knowing that an EV will have a significant impact on every member’s energy bills (whether the bill doubles or not), we are investing in which services we can provide to make charging the car as simple, renewable and affordable as we can.

    This is still wrong and I'm afraid you've missed the point.

    Petrol/diesel is stored energy, and should be included in the calculation of "every member’s energy bills". There's no issue with stating that getting an EV could cause your electric bill to double. The statement just needs to include the fact that your electric bill will go up by an amount that is much less than the reduction in the petrol/diesel bill. i.e., the energy bill will always reduce. Whether or not a household is more or less energy efficient is irrelevant.
  • I agree. It makes it sounds like doubling or tripling your electricity bill is a bad thing. But if that happens, you're saving shed loads on either diesel or petrol..so it's a good thing having the higher electricity bill :#
  • Yes, the more your electricity bill goes up the less you are spending overall!
  • Yeah seems like the point has still been missed a bit as the others have said.

    Of course everyone wants "to make charging the car as simple, renewable and affordable as we can.", but if you are moving from petrol or diesel it's already a shed load cheaper. No one who looks into it goes hmm yeah charging at home is too expensive I'll stick with petrol, but after reading your blog post people may very well do just that.
  • No one who looks into it goes hmm yeah charging at home is too expensive

    Several people who I've talked with have baulked at the idea of a 7kW load running for hours at a time. The compare it with having two kettles boiling constantly and how horrendously expensive that would be, and yes of course it's a shed load of electricity compared to anything else anyone has ever owned or used before. It's only when you point out how much cheaper it is than liquid fuel that they have the lightbulb moment.

    That's why this article is so poor in inciting worry over massive electric bills without showing the comparison.
  • edited March 1
    To encapsulate the points @MorgenBlue and others have made, the money my wife has saved not buying diesel to put in her last car, paid in 2016 for all of a 2 year lease of a new BMW i3 94Ah (range is on average 130 miles) with options taking the price tag to £40,500. We bought the car for peanuts last August at the end of the term. Now the money saved not buying diesel pays back the dip we took into savings to buy it outright. We're talking the difference between about £300 a month in diesel and £60 a month in electricity. Yes it was a cheap lease deal, but similar deals can still be achieved with other new cars, and of course even more of a benefit is felt when buying a used electric car for cash.

    Electric cars are a no-brainer financially. With a Type 2 home charger that charges the car overnight on Eco7 range isn't an issue for most people based on the average person's daily mileage. If you're travelling further than the range left in your car's batteries and so need to charge en route, it just requires a little more planning than dropping into the thousands of filling stations more easily available. It's just slightly less convenient to start with, but then planning in a stop at a rapid-charger becomes completely normal. The pay-off is tangible in financial terms.

    I'm done with trying to educate the flat-earthers who "don't believe in EVs". If they can't see it, let them keep paying out more than they need to keep the oil firms' shareholders in dividends. With the amount of new EVs on offer and about to be launched, and the amount of renewable energy being generated in the UK and beyond, pretty soon there will be little or no defence for running diesel cars that are literally killing us, every day.
  • I've made the decision to leave Bulb due to this post and the response. EVs, and decarbonising energy production in general is something I'm quite passionate about. I thought Bulb was as well.

    A few things lately such as this, and the dispute over paying the deemed export rate to storage users have made me question if Bulb genuinely believes what it preaches.
Sign In or Register to comment.