Are you an EV driver without off-street parking?

Hello :wave:

We’ve spotted that the Department for Transport (DfT) is researching the charging needs of EV drivers who don’t have access to off-street parking.

We wanted to share the opportunity with you in case you’re interested in getting involved - This could be a great opportunity for you to voice your thoughts & ideas about public charging to policy makers directly.

Here’s what we know:

  • They’re looking to speak to people with a range of views and experiences
  • The research will consist of a combination of online community tasks and online focus groups / events
  • Participants will receive an incentive payment to thank them for taking part
  • All of the research will be carried out by experienced researchers from an insight and strategy consultancy called BritainThinks
  • Here’s their privacy policy in case you want to give it a once over first
  • If you have any questions, you can contact BritainThinks at EVresearch@britainthinks.com

If you’d like to get involved, here’s the survey to register your interest

-Ed

Just so you know, this isn’t a partnership between Bulb and DfT (we aren’t involved in this research at all, we just found it interesting!)

People have no idea that charging these electric vehicles requires a minimum of 3kw with average installs of 3.8kw thats quite a load on the infrastructure and where are all these used batteries going to go once they no longer recharge properly - they have qute the most toxic chemicals in them going to landfill to pollute the planet even more.

Hard choice especially with the price of these cars themselves and the price of a new battery when yours fails - then there are the install costs and upgrade of your Circuit box and MCB etc if you want a point installed at home currently £545 cheapest!

I wonder what the average running costs for an electric vehicle are?
I know mechanics dont like working on them as they are so dangerousm, one false move and zap you are dead!

How are they going to wire up on street charging?
Via the power used to supply lamposts?
Going to require quite a lot of new junction boxes to handle you average street say 3kw minimum per car and say 30 cars per street that is quite a load!

PS. YOUR LINK TO THE REGISTRATION DOES NOT WORK!
HAVE THEY PULLED IT ALREADY?

Wow, I’m going to have to go though a few things here

No, just…
In the car, you are able to adjust charging current on every electric car I’ve been in. Some charging stations such as teslas “superchargers” can even dynamically tell the cars how much charge current to use based on how much power is available.

It is true that lithium mining is harmful too the environment, maybe that’s what your trying to say, but the battery packs used in cars are not going to landfill. A study done in 2018 states that lithium ion battery’s are able to be recycled with as much as 96% of the materials in them being able to be reused.

No, your looking at upfront costs. Other than this being a smaller issue than it was thanks to newer ways to get new cars and many on contract hire leasing schemes, it simply doesn’t look at the full limtime of the car. look at this
image

Ok this one made me laugh. here’s the thing with electric cars - They don’t need the intricate maintenance that a petrol car would. Electric cars are much simpler mechanically then ICE cars. Your mechanic is going to be looking at tire and wiper changes, not looking at the HV system in the car. If the HV system needs looking at, you should be going to the dealership.
Even then, the battery packs have “contactors” in them. These disconnect the HV battery until the cars checks have been completed and you “start” the car
I don’t know what you think electric cars are, but your not going to be shocked by your electric car.

Have a look at the “Electric Vehicle Homecharge Scheme”.

Hope that explains some things to you.

Thanks some useful info there IZZ but have to disagree on a few points!

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You kinda put the boot in on the Electric cars are so much cheaper if its only 3% advantage over a lifetime with limited range and the time it takes to charge one as well as all the other little foibles that they have…well hmmmm
Does not look that great for most people really!

Hate to disagree but i indeed have to laugh at your response as I am an electronics and computer design engineer myself - the HV system is 400v in most electric cars with Porsche being 800v and as you know quite well (or should) most owners will be using ordinary garages not dealerships to cut costs and whilst Electric has less problems they are dangerous for mechanics to work on than any petrol or diesel engine of that there is no doubt - I suggest you checkout the recent videos by Scotty Kilmer and Ericthecarguy two of the top mechanics on Youtube who have said “they dread working on electric cars as they can be quite dangeorus to work on the motor and electric system” - I never meant changing tyres or driver/passenger dangers that was a bit cheeky of you lol. As I said I actually know car mechanics who work on them and they are all very wary of working on them even at dealerships they have to be very careful when disengaging the drive or battery but i guess you average backstreet garage wgere many people might take them might not be so careful…zaaapp!

Electric cars cause more fatalities than petrol

Electric cars cannot be towed without destroying the motor which most owners dont know so more requirements for a complete motor replacement - no idea how much that is but i can guess it is not cheap!

The high impact of Lithium extraction in the third world is quite devastating especially with child labour and green issues!

Lithium car batteries are typically recycled by the manufacturers with still 70% capacity remaining!
The global stockpile of these batteries is expected to exceed 3.4 million by 2025, compared with about 55,000 in 2018. This is almost a 62-fold increase in 7 years.
For large vehicles batteries MUST be replaced every 3 to 4 years - small cars 10 years!
That is a lot of recyling with 560 million electric cars predicted by 2040!
It is all well and good talking about now but what about the future?

You obviously did not watch the recent documentary on lithium recovery - there are not many plants doing recovery - it will only be advanced by electric car sales and the need for recovery! Lithium is supposed to be banned from landfill but there are many cases already of it being dumped!

After a battery is recovered properly by being smelted, the lithium ends up as a mixed byproduct and extracting it is costly. While the cost of [fully recycling a lithium-ion battery] is about [€1 per kilogram, the value of the raw minerals reclaimed from the process is only about a third of that.Another way to look at the cost of extraction of lithium from old batteries is that it is [5 times more expensive than mined lithium].

You state a lot of things that are not actually factual in the REAL WORLD!

Hope that explains some things to you!

Most people think the leccie costs are in pennies to recharge but this little article might surprise the average buyer and factor in the limited range things look even less palatable!

Pod Point rapid chargers cost 23p/kWh at Lidl and 24p/kWh at Tesco, which is about £6-7 for 30 minutes of charging (about 100 miles of range).

Does that really look good to you?
As far as i can see the cost of the AVERAGE electric vehicle in the UK is £44,000
I cant afford that could you?

As I already mentioned , having to charge at home has extra install costs and problems with the installation as many users are now reporting with botched jobs causing electrical fires at the main junction box and check out the ELECTRICAL SAFETY FIRST website “74% of EV users admit they have charged dangerously due to absence of local public charging points”

That is 74%!!!
So how many of those will be taking the car to dodgy garages for a fix - As I said REAL WORLD!

PS. Your link still does not work - That does not look good so what point is there posting this and giving people a link that does not work?

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I was not talking about current I was talking about power - P=V*I
If you charge your car from the very basic port available ie standard basic 13amp socket the charge WILL BE minimum 3KWh so it does not matter what the current is it will be driven by the maximum output of the receptacle you use to charge which as I said is 3kw @240v and from what i can glean 10 hours to charge your average 30KWh EV so if you break down in Asda car park you gonna be there for quite some time or if Mr AA or RAC comes he better bring a trailer as he wont be able to work on the motor at the roadside other than plugging in an OBD reader!

As for insurance and breakdown recovery there are many things like this that are also no factored into the overall cost of ownership!
A Tesla model 3 currently costs £1390 to insure - my car costs £159 a year with breakdown included in that price!

I also believe if you have a charge point installed at home your house insurance also goes up quite substantially due to perceived insurance risks!

The Financial Times headline on the scenarios reads: “Electric cars forecast to create extra 18GW demand,” with a subtitle saying: “National Grid predicts peak impact equivalent to capacity of 6 nuclear plants by 2050.”

As I said not all things in EV are rosy if you actually look at all the REAL WORLD costs and problems it soon becomes quite scary!

I was indeed planning on getting an electric car but i have changed my mind after reviewing the actual costs right now!

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Right, i could name every part of an EV’s fundamental drivetrain. EV’s are simple compared to ICE cars. There not likely to have the motor worked on in comparison to the horde of issues that can happen to ICE’s - I would know. Is the High voltage DC dangerous? Yes absolutely if you have no idea what you’re doing, but your not taking your brand new EV to a dodgy garage to have part of the EV system worked on, current mechanics will also have to learn and take courses to adapt to the new rise in electric cars, or they can get left behind. as they say in there quote, it “can be quite dangerous”

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Please show me your source, im genuinely curious about this one. Do you mean in crash’s or repairs. Not enough information to comment on.

This is and isn’t true. It’s like saying “you cant tow AWD cars without destroying the transmission”. Electric vehicles need a flat bed trailer or some can be put in a tow mode. Not sure what your point is here. My old ice car also required a flat bed to be towed

Totally agree. The current methods use in lithium extraction are awful to both the people doing the work and the environment.

No, this isn’t really true. A well kept and maintained battery will last a long time, a solid 10 years. Most of the damage done to the battery in the the last 20% of the charge or being kept at a low SoC. It is a bit stupid coming from a petrol car to not be able to fill the car up all the way without damaging it, but i suppose that’s one of the current downsides of EV’s

My point was that the battery’s are able to be recycled. In early days of cars, people would just dump used engine oil and 12v battery’s (haha) into landfill but look now, its being recycled. The current technology means it isn’t being recycled to the full ability at the moment, but in the future (as you said being accelerated by EV sales) it will be possible as a sensible cost

This is like saying “x garage charges 200p a litre for petrol”, but I’ll go with it anyway. Lets say a petrol car has a range of 500miles with a tank of 55 litres of fuel, and take the average of 124.2 p/ litre. 55 * 1.242 = 68.31, so £68.31 for that full tank. Lets find the cost per mile by doing 68.31/500. that comes to 0.13662, so for the petrol car, we have a cost of 13.66p a mile, now lets do an electric car with that pod point charger.its £7 for 100 miles in your calculation, so we will times that by 5 to get it for 500 miles £7*5 comes to £35, so £35 for 500 miles. now lets find the cost per mile for that. 35/500 = 0.07, so 7 pence a mile.
In conclusion, using the crappy pod point charger will almost cost half as much as going the same distance in a petrol car, so yes that really does look good to me

Well that’s the electricians fault not the electric cars. It’s like buying an oven, having the consumer unit catch on fire because of a poor installation and saying “what a rubbish oven”

lets have a full look at this should we. 74% believe that a lack of public charging points near their home has led them to use domestic multi-socket extension leads, not suitable for outdoor use, to charge from the mains in their home. Oh wow, using an extension lead. What a huge issue this is. Well what it would be if every extension lead in the UK wasn’t fused and certified with british standards to be safe. Using a indoor extension outside isn’t the best idea if its going to rain, but if your leaving an indoor extension outdoors in rain you almost deserve to be electrocuted, but you wouldn’t be able to because before you would be, the RCD in the consumer unit would have tripped.

What link? bulbs forum is currently a bit broken because of a recent security flaw, and it doesn’t even allow me to insert a link.

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  1. What you say doesn’t really make sense. you talked about lack of charge but then using a code reader. You need the code reader to tell you the cars run out of charge?
  2. RAC has the " EV Boost mobile charging system"
  3. AA will tow you to a charging station at no extra cost (and there mechanics are “High Voltage Awareness trained – so you’re in safe hands.” no need to worry about the “zzzaaappp” :rofl:

Oh wow, a “luxury” saloon with high performance costs quite a bit to insure! what do you drive? how much No claims do you have? how long have you been driving? all questions when it comes to insurance cost.

This is something which im curious if it will be an issue. Most electric car owners charge there cars at night, when electricity costs are lower due to the reduced demand at that time. When electric cars are using the power from the grid, the grid is at its lowest useage. Will be interesting to see how this plays out in the future though.

Those rates are fairly reasonable, considering that there’s no subscription charge for Pod-point. PAYG at BP/Polar and GridServe Electric Highway both charge 30p/kWh, at Shell it’s 41p/kWh (IIRC), and Ionity is 69p/kWh (though their chargers are “superchargers” like Tesla’s).

If you pay BP a subscription of about £7/£8 per month, you can charge for 15p/kWh.

Remember that you’re generally paying a premium rate per kWh for the speed at which the rapid (or ultrarapid) chargers can dump electricity into the car (commonly via DC instead of AC).

However, you’ve missed that there’s a bunch of slower public chargers that cost nothing to use - eg Pod-point has lots of 3kW, 7kW and 11kW chargers scattered around (many Tesco car parks now have such PP points). Lots of on-street parking in Brighton has been fitted with either 3kW or 7kW chargers. Milton Keynes has done likewise. Other towns and cities will follow.

If you’re parking for a couple of hours while in town or at the supermarket, getting a “top-up” trickle charge is perfectly adequate for many (if not most) use cases.

It will be a maximum of 3kW as that’s essentially all that 13A sockets can give - which is why the fastest kettles are 3kW! (being picky: 13A×240v = 3120W).

The AA and RAC have kit to cover EVs - some of their units now have their own charger so they can charge a stranded EV, or if they think you need to be recovered, they can send a suitable vehicle (either low-loader style, or with the ability to lift drive wheels off the road, as appropriate).

Power is voltage x current what didnt you understand?
I was talking about power of a 13amp socket which is nominally 3kw at the current UK standard of 230v not 240v - DUH - Go read your previous reply!

A flat battery does not mean you cant use an obd reader they only require minimal voltage to work and a flat battery is rarely flat - the code will perhaps show which part of the drivetrain is the issue - back to school for you - dont talk when you havent a clue what you talk about!

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Your the one saying that 3KW minimum per car when this isn’t true, I say you can adjust the current on the car, you carry on about “power”, even when adjusting the current would therefore adjust the amount of power being fed to the car. you now going an about how the voltage might not allow 3KW? your not making sence.

Didn’t say this? You were going on about how the battery could run out at asda then the RAC are gonna get a OBD reader out. Now your talking about the drivetrain?

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True agree with most of your points but uk since 2003 is 230v nominal so 3kw is about right even so i said 3kw as a rounded up figure it could be -6% +10% depending where you live,.

Yes but what i was saying is most people are thinking EV is pennies and not pounds that was the gist of what i was saying but yeah i didnt know you could pay a sub but getting a charge point every time might be a tad tricky when more ev hit the road no my local Asaxda only has 6 points - never seen one free until mid day - not good if you start work at 8am?

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Yeah but do most Asda free points etc not have you restricted to an hours use from what i have read (certainly up here the ones near me are a bit restrictive) - i may be wrong but i doubt most people work near an Asda or free point and trying to get a vacant one may be a problem just like trying to get a parking space in some places but i dig what you are saying so yes i did know about the free energy is useful if you go shopping for an hour or two but overall EV is not cheap enough and not enough charging points yet to be viable for the vast majority of people!

Didnt know the AA or RAC are equipped so well so yip good point another plus point for EV!
I think like most people I will wait a few years until things get established and prices come down - always the way in Tech!

One example P=VI you took that out of any semblance of what i meant!
You seem to suggest i didnt know that I was current when i was talking about nominal power at a basic 13 amp socket which is the most basic place to charge an EV from I believe?

Want another - i said "if you break down in Asda " never mentioned battery!

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There you go points answered!

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No i believed you were saying that cars must use at minimum 3KW. I point out that you can adjust the current in the car (the I in P=VI) in order to reduce the amount of power needed, so you could have a car that only needs 900w of power to charge for example.

The way you worded that looks like your talking about breaking down due to lack of charge. You seemed to pull the OBD out of nowhere. Sorry for my misunderstanding

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Hi @Omendata & @izzyhunt!

First of all, apologies that the link wasn’t set up correctly - it has been edited and should be working fine now @Omendata, thank you for flagging this :slight_smile:

It’s good to see such an in-depth and important discussion on EVs happening here, but please do keep things civil. You both have made some important points, and there’s no need for it to descend into personal insults.

I’ve removed some of the off-topic parts of your posts, as we want to focus on constructive discussion here.

Just to pick up on the main points of your discussion:

I agree that as they currently are, EVs aren’t the perfect “silver bullet” for fixing our personal transport emissions - you quite rightly point out the issues with lithium mining and recycling of batteries, as well as access to public charging points. We actually have a thread on exactly this topic about EVs and the circular economy and the actions being made to make battery sourcing more ethical.

New technologies always have a learning curve in their adoption but EVs are only going to get better as battery technology, grid infrastructure and recycling methods improve.

In my opinion, a successful public charging network means that there is charging available wherever you go in an EV, whether that be a supermarket, a golf course, or to a restaurant. This would mean less need for expensive charging at superchargers to get your battery as full as possible, and range anxiety would be eliminated.

@Omendata you mentioned that you considered getting an EV but decided against it. What would you say was the biggest barrier you found? Is it the ethical element first and foremost? And what would need to change with EVs for you to reconsider?

This is happening.

Tesla are installing little blocks of chargers at various “destination” locations (pubs, restaurants, theme parks, etc), and calling that the “Tesla Destination” network (note that these blocks include some support for non-Tesla EVs, unlike their supercharger network).

BP’s network includes chargers at many Holiday Inn hotels, some pub locations and some sports venues (tennis clubs, golf clubs, etc.).

Funny thing is that the chargers I mention above are all rapid (43/50kW). It’d probably be better if there were some fast (7kW/11kW) chargers in the mix, but I expect that will happen as the charging infrastructure evolves (it’s improving all the time). Either that, or rapid will simply become the baseline charger (given that ultrarapid/super is also becoming more common).